@Chao-c'

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Hubzilla is the most incompatible ActivityPub software in Fediverse. You do just lot of things wrong, to put it mildly.

You still seem to think that Gargron invented ActivityPub and the Fediverse, that Mastodon is the one and only reference implementation of ActivityPub, and that everything that doesn't work exactly like Mastodon is broken.

Here are the facts:

Mastodon was launched in January, 2016.

Hubzilla was launched in March, 2015. Counting an earlier incarnation named Red, it was created in May, 2012, when Friendica's creator re-wrote his own fork of a Friendica fork of his own.

Mastodon implemented ActivityPub in September, 2017, when the spec wasn't finalised yet.

Hubzilla implemented ActivityPub in July, 2017. Two months before Mastodon. Hubzilla was the first software to ever implement ActivityPub.

Hubzilla implemented ActivityPub strictly by the book. It has always tried to stick as close to the official W3C ActivityPub spec as possible.

Mastodon, in stark contrast, has always been stretching the ActivityPub spec until it broke. Not only that, but it has always been adding stuff outside the spec. First it did so to take over certain features from StatusNet which was its original protocol. More recently, it did so with the very intention to break compatibility with the rest of the Fediverse and make everything that isn't Mastodon look broken. And people like you keep falling for it because they think they know for a fact that Mastodon is the ActivityPub reference implementation.

The whole Fediverse has to break the ActivityPub spec just to be able to federate with Mastodon.

yes, the Hubzilla author is writing Streams, with nomadic identity, but it also means, that he understands, that Hubzilla approach is kind of dead-end.

You know nothing. Whereas I can rattle down the whole history from Mistpark in 2010 to today.

Mike Macgirvin, creator of Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte created his post-Hubzilla server applications because he kept advancing the Zot protocol. And he couldn't implement these advancements into Hubzilla because they bore the chance of breaking compatibility with what already existed.

(streams) is not a completely new development, nor is it a straight Hubzilla fork.

(streams) is a 2022 fork of Roadhouse.
Which was a 2022 fork of either the third Osada or Mistpark 2020 or Redmatrix 2020.
Which were 2020 forks of Zap (or each other, but at least one of them was forked from Zap).
Which was a 2018 fork of either Hubzilla itself or the first Osada, which was a 2018 fork of Hubzilla.

Osada and Zap were created to develop Zot6. In its early stages of concept, Mike expected Zot6 to be incompatible with everything else. Mind you, he didn't see that as something bad. Advancing Zot was necessary because the then-current version of Zot was less than optimal. And Mike's vision was a decentralised, nomadic network named the "Grid", entirely based on Zot. The Grid would have been vastly superior to the existing Fediverse in every way possible.

So the issue with his early draft of Zot6 was that it was quite incompatible with non-nomadic protocols. Nomadic Zot6 content could not be translated into non-nomadic protocols like the diaspora* protocol or ActivityPub.

Thus, developing Zot6 on Hubzilla was out of question. Zot6 would have broken too much on Hubzilla. Besides, Hubzilla was bad as a platform to experiment on due to its wealth of supported protocols and other features, all of which would have had to be made compatible with Zot6.

And this is the real reason why Mike created Osada and Zap. From how I see it, and how I remember what he talked about back in the day (I was there, yes), he first forked Osada from Hubzilla. Then he ripped everything out that he didn't need, including support for all protocols except for Zot itself, ActivityPub, RSS and Atom, including the CMS stuff like articles, planning cards, notes, wikis and webpages, etc. Then he modified what was left against his early version of Zot6.

Then he discovered that a cloned Osada channel couldn't properly send content via ActivityPub.

Then, shortly afterwards, he forked Osada into Zap. He removed nomadic identity from Osada which kept ActivityPub and ActivityPub support from Zap which stayed nomadic.

The idea was to have a nomadic, cloned channel on Zap as your main channel that would only connect to Hubzilla, Osada and Zap, and to have an additional, non-nomadic channel on Osada that would serve as a "gateway" between nomadic Zap and the non-nomadic ActivityPub Fediverse.

Of course, this was highly impractical. But by 2019, Mike found a way to make Zot6 compatible with non-nomadic protocols. So, in early 2019, Mike discontinued Osada and forked a new Osada from Zap which only differred from Zap by having ActivityPub support while still being nomadic. This enabled Mike to have one development platform for Zot6 in conjunction with non-nomadic protocols and another one on which ActivityPub did not stand in the way.

Later in 2019, both Osada and Zap got stable releases. At that point, Osada and Zap were identical in code. Both had ActivityPub support. It was included into their cores now and no longer an add-on like on Hubzilla. They only had two differences. One was the branding. The other one was that Osada servers had ActivityPub activated by default, and Zap servers had ActivityPub disabled by default. Keeping Osada around was unnecessary now, so ActivityPub was activated by default on Zap, and Osada was discontinued. Zot6 was so stable that it was soon backported to Hubzilla.

Mike wasn't done yet, though. He now wanted to develop Zot8. Again, he did not want to develop protocol changes on stable production software that people potentially daily-drove.

Thus, three new forks emerged in 2020: another Osada, Mistpark 2020 (a.k.a. Misty) and Redmatrix 2020 (named after the Red Matrix, the name that Hubzilla bore from late 2012 to early 2015 between being created as Red and being re-branded into Hubzilla). Mike used them to develop Zot8. They were identical in all but brand identity.

This was fully intentional on Mike's part to confuse the hell out of the brand fetishists that were growing more and more numerous in the Fediverse. His goal was for people to declare Osada or Misty or Redmatrix the best Fediverse software and superior to everything else, just for him to tell them that Osada, Misty and Redmatrix are absolutely identical. In fact, the three remained identical to Zap in features.

Zot8 never got stable because Mike kept advancing it further and further. In early 2022, he was at Zot11. But Zot11 was so incompatible with everything else, including previous Zot versions, that Mike declared it a new protocol of its own and renamed it Nomad. In order to test-drive it, he forked Osada or Misty or Redmatrix into Roadhouse. After all, there were people who were daring enough to daily-drive production channels on Osada, Misty and Redmatrix, albeit only few. Roadhouse was still identical in features to Zap, Osada, Misty and Redmatrix.

It was now possible to crossgrade between Zap, Osada, Misty, Redmatrix and Roadhouse by simply rebasing the server code.

Later in 2022, he created a new fork of Roadhouse itself. The reason for this was not further protocol advancement. No, this time, it mostly had branding and licensing reasons.

First of all, he wanted to make that fork as easy for others to fork and adopt as possible. Everything he had developed so far was under the MIT license (he himself had relicensed Friendica under the AGPLv3 in 2011, but he didn't actually develop on Friendica; he developed on a fork named Free-Friendika that was still MIT-licensed and then backported the changes to the Friendica repository, and Red was a Free-Friendika fork). This new repository was released into the public domain. At first, the whole thing was never primarily intended to be installed on servers as it was, but rather to be forked as the base of something new.

At least the core and Mike's own add-ons were. What third-party add-ons from Hubzilla times were still there got to keep their maze of licenses. This was intentional on Mike's part, too. It would make it impossible for commercial players to scoop up the whole thing and relicense it into something non-free and commercial without breaking any licenses, or without pumping tons of money into their legal department to work around that maze of licenses.

Also, Mike removed any and all naming and branding from the software. He absolutely intentionally made it nameless. You've read that right. He did this for two reasons. One, whoever wanted to fork it would have to give the fork an individual name and an individual branding. Two, this was to mess with brand fanbois and brand fetishists even more: This thing had no brand to gush over to begin with.

Furthermore, Mike removed all nodeinfo code that he could possibly get away with removing. Again, this was intentional. One intention was to stop this software from automatically joining the "my Fediverse project is bigger than yours" and "my server is bigger than yours" rat races. He intentionally did everything he could to keep this software away from The Federation, Fediverse Observer, FediDB and the like.

The other intention was for the case of commercial players looking for free code to steal. If this software had really taken off and left its stats proving its popularity everywhere, some big commercial player would have been likely to try and steal this software, make it commercial and non-free and release it as their own original creation. So his intention was for them to not even be able to find it in this case. (This, by the way, was the reason why he relicensed Friendica under the AGPLv3, and why he hardly ever spoke about Free-Friendika: Now that Friendica was growing popular, he didn't want big commercial players to scoop up code of his under a license that they could change to non-free.)

This server application became the first and only one in the Fediverse with no fixed server type identifier, in fact, with none at all by default. It has one text field for the server name, just like Mastodon and Friendica and Hubzilla and the like. But it has an additional field where the server type, i.e. the identifier for the software, can be entered. If none is entered, it's derived from the server name. Mike used to have a server that identified as "Y" because, as he said, "Y is not X."

While the application itself is nameless (for it still is), the code repository did require a name of sorts. Mike named the repository "streams".

Now, the community needed something to call that nameless software when they spoke about it. So they unofficially established "(streams)", complete with parentheses that make sure that this is not actually the name of this software. Those who say, "Streams," with a capital S and no parentheses, and who use that term as if it's an official name, usually sincerely believe that this is the official name.

Mike himself uses "streams" without the parentheses because even he needs something to call his own software by. Before Forte was made, he preferred talking about the streams repository without directly mentioning the software. And he himself denied that (streams) is even a project. It's just a bunch of code that runs.

As far as I know, it was now possible to freely crossgrade between six different server applications because they were still identical in features. Only that Mike also had six server applications to take care of now.

So on December 31st, 2022, Mike discontinued Zap, Osada, Misty, Redmatrix and Roadhouse. Admins who ran either of these on their servers were recommended to rebase their servers to the streams repository. In this case, by the way, the old branding was kept. I've seen a server that still had "zap" as its subdomain which indicated that it was set up as a Zap server, that had Misty branding, but that actually ran (streams).

From then on, Mike dedicated his time to maintaining and developing only the streams repository. He still occasionally helped Hubzilla out, though.

In 2023, the Mitra creator and developer silverpill approached Mike. The goal was to make Mitra nomadic. I guess earlier attempts using a blockchain and crypto technology didn't come to fruition, so it had to be Mike's way which had proven itself stable for more than a decade. However, Mitra was to remain based on ActivityPub.

It was in this exchange that Mike realised that ActivityPub could indeed be used for nomadic identity if a few things were added to it. One outcome was FEP-ef61 "Portable Objects" which introduced decentralised IDs (DIDs) that would not be bound to any one server domain.

Instead of creating a whole new server application to play with, Mike simply made a "nomadic" branch in the streams repository (even though the software was already nomadic) in which he implemented support for nomadic identity via ActivityPub. Support as in (streams) understanding it while internally still using Nomad for nomadicity.

In June, 2024, Mike considered the "nomadic" branch reliable enough and merged it into the "dev" branch.

In July, 2024, Mike merged the "dev" branch into the "release" branch which caused DIDs as per FEP-ef61 to be rolled out to existing production servers. On accounts created on this new version, channels would have a DID internally. On accounts greated on any previous version, even new channels would keep the old ID system for the time being. This way, existing accounts and channels weren't messed with.

However, what had worked under supervised and restricted lab conditions completely blew up under real-life conditions. Again, I was there on (streams) with a pre-DID account and two channels on it. I still have them. (streams) channels wouldn't federate with anything anymore. It had become impossible to send anything anywhere. What Mike was facing was nothing short of an enigma because not even he knew what was going in.

So he started tinkering. In mid-August, Mike forked the streams repository into something named and branded Forte. He did so so he could rip the Nomad protocol out while still keeping the entire functionality. He had to get rid of Nomad because he had discovered that (streams) got confused juggling all the many IDs it had to deal with, so he had to weed out the Nomad and Zot6 IDs to make things easier. But he couldn't possibly have done that on (streams) proper.

This way, Mike created the very first Fediverse server software that uses ActivityPub for full nomadicity, including cloning.

By the end of August, things got back to normal. But Mike, having spent every free minute in the last few weeks to get (streams) back into working condition, was burned out. He sent an open message around in which he declared that he would completely retire from Fediverse development, and both the streams repository and Forte were up for grabs.

But nobody was found who could take over either. (streams) and Forte probably had way fewer than 100 users combined. Those few who would have been able to maintain either didn't have time. One did have time and was willing to do so, but he didn't know how to code. He eventually did start teaching himself, and he occasionally contributes merge requests, but there was no way he could take over as the only dev for either, much less both. So Mike had to go on, whether he wanted or not, albeit at a somewhat slower pace.

This is why Mike is still developing (streams) and Forte to this day.

By the way: The reason why Mike "abandoned" his old software was because he needed to invest all his time into protocol development and advancement. Mike isn't the one to constantly maintain stable server software unless he absolutely has to.

In 2011, he handed Friendica over to two new developers so that he had time to create the Zot protocol.

In 2015 already, he handed Hubzilla over to two new developers so that he had time to explore the advancement of the Zot protocol. He still contributed to Hubzilla's development.

In 2019, he wanted to hand Osada and Zap over to the community, now that they were stable, so he had time to develop Zot8. But the Osada/Zap community was so tiny that he couldn't get a new dedicated developer team together.

In 2024, he wanted to hand (streams) and Forte over to the community because fixing (streams)' huge identity bug, which led to Forte's creation, had burnt him out. He wanted to quit. But, again, he couldn't because (streams) didn't have a single user who had both the time and the knowledge to take over as the new main dev.

Consider this: Gargron was a young man when he made Mastodon. I think he was still at university. Mike Macgirvin made Friendica, he had some three decades of professional work in IT and software under his belly. Gargron was at the beginning of his career. Mike had quit and moved from the USA to the western Australian outback where he has been living as a farmer ever since. He might actually be older than Gargron's parents.

while nomadic identitity would be cool thing, currently it does not exist

Take off your Mastodon glasses and look at the Fediverse and what it actually is like.

Nomadic identity does exist. Not as a vague idea, not as a concept on paper, but as a stable, production-grade feature that has been used to its full extent for well over a decade now. Just because Mastodon doesn't have it, doesn't mean the Fediverse doesn't have it. And just because Mastodon doesn't recognise it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The Fediverse has loads of features which Mastodon users want "the Fediverse" to have. It has features which many Mastodon users have never wanted "the Fediverse" to have such as quote-posts, introduced by Mike Macgirvin on Mistpark in 2010. It even has features that are completely and utterly unimaginable for Mastodon users, and it has had even these since as early as 2010, 2012 or 2015.

Nomadic identity was invented by Mike Macgirvin in 2011 with the Zot protocol.

It was first implemented by him in mid-2012 when he rewrote Red against Zot. This means that Hubzilla itself has been offering full-blown nomadic identity since 2012, almost four years longer than Mastodon has existed.

This very Hubzilla channel that I'm commenting from right here, right now, is actually nomadic. It is cloned across two servers: hub.netzgemeinde.eu and hub.hubzilla.de. And it has been since before Elon Musk announced to take over Twitter in early 2022. When I sent you this comment, it was automatically sync'd over to hub.hubzilla.de. When you sent the comment that I'm replying to, it was automatically sync'd over to hub.hubzilla.de. The clone has actually been of great help at least once.

Unfortunately, non-nomadic software identifies cloned channels as fully separate accounts with fully separate identities. But rest assured: @Jupiter Rowland on hub.hubzilla.de is my clone. It's the live, hot, real-time, bidirectional backup of the main instance of my channel, @Jupiter Rowland on hub.netzgemeinde.eu that you're following now. They're both one and the same channel with one and the same identity, jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu, even though Mastodon is unable to see it as such. Go check both. You'll see they've got all the same content in them, including comments from others. Including your comment. How else can jupiter_rowland@hub.hubzilla.de possibly have one of your comments under a post if you've only sent that comment to jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu if it weren't for nomadic identity?

Even nomadic identity via ActivityPub is available as a stable, production-grade feature in stable, production-grade software right now as we speak. Forte was the first to be fully nomadic via nothing but ActivityPub, as of mid-August, 2024. Tootik, based on Gemini instead of the World Wide Web, is fully nomadic at server level, too. Mitra is fully nomadic by means of the Minimitra client.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #MastodonCentricity #MastodonNormativity #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate #ActivityPub #Zot #Zot6 #Zot8 #Nomad #Friendica #Red #RedMatrix #Hubzilla #Osada #Zap #Mistpark #Mistpark2020 #Misty #Redmatrix2020 #Roadhouse #Streams #(streams) #Forte #Tootik #Mitra #Minimitra #NomadicIdentity

@Brett Coulstock You should care if you think that Gargron has invented the Fediverse as a pure Mastodon network. If you think that e.g. Friendica and Hubzilla came into the Mastodon Fediverse after the fact. If you use this thinking as a justification to force Mastodon's rules and Mastodon's culture upon Friendica and Hubzilla users because you take them for intruders in a place where they don't rightfully belong.

Because Friendica and Hubzilla did not intrude into Mastodon's Fediverse. They were in the Fediverse before Mastodon.

You should care if you think that posting more than 500 characters is bad behaviour as it goes against "the Fediverse culture".

Because that "Fediverse culture" is only Mastodon's culture. And the culture on Friendica and Hubzilla, which pre-dates Mastodon itself by years, knows no character limits.

You should care if you think that Gargron is evil for introducing quote-posts to the Fediverse.

Because it was actually Mike Macgirvin, creator of Friendica and Hubzilla, who did that. In 2010. 16 years before now. Almost 6 years before Mastodon was even made.

And because just about everything that isn't Mastodon could quote-post Mastodon toots before Mastodon users even considered quote-posts evil.

You should care if you wish for "the Fediverse" to introduce certain new features. Like reply control. Or better list handlings. Or groups. Or even only more characters.

Because "the Fediverse" does have all these features. Just Mastodon doesn't have them. But Mastodon is not the Fediverse.

You should care if you don't want "the Fediverse" to ever introduce certain features. Like a higher default character limit. Or text formatting.

Because the Fediverse already has such features. As in, it can use these features in posts which it then sends to Mastodon. And there's nothing, absolutely nothing that Mastodon and its users can do against it. Except for muting and blocking.

You should care if you find it easier to use "Mastodon" and "Fediverse" synonymously, and all this "nitpicking" about when it's "Mastodon" and when it's "Fediverse" enrages you.

Because it enrages users in the non-Mastodon Fediverse when people say right into their faces that they toot. And/or that they're on Mastodon and therefore bound to the exact same rules and the exact same culture as everyone else on Mastodon. And they will so very much not let you have your way.

All these are things which, unfortunately, those who have never experienced anything else in the Fediverse than Mastodon will hardly ever understand.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #CharacterLimitMeta #CWCharacterLimitMeta #500Characters #NotOnlyMastodon #FediverseIsNotMastodon #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse

@craftxbox No, it's about more than every other Mastodon user thinking that the Fediverse equals Mastodon.

Most of the rest still think (or they think they know):

• The Fediverse started with Mastodon. Gargron has invented the Fediverse.
• Everything that isn't Mastodon is either designed as a Mastodon add-on (Pixelfed, PeerTube etc.), or if it clearly isn't that, it's an intruder into the Mastodon Fediverse.
• If Mastodon doesn't have a feature, the Fediverse doesn't have that feature. This also means that if they succeed at keeping Mastodon from introducing a feature that they don't want, the whole Fediverse will never have it.

There are Mastodon users who wish for "the Fediverse" (they mean Mastodon because that's all they know) to introduce some feature, blissfully unaware that this feature is all over the Fediverse outside of Mastodon.

There are Mastodon users who "know for a fact" that Mastodon has just introduced quote-posts to the Fediverse, including an opt-out that works Fediverse-wide. They're blissfully unaware that a) Friendica and Hubzilla have been able to quote-post literally every single last public Mastodon toot since Mastodon's launch in 2016, and b) they both still are, opt-out or not.

And then there are those who spend two years or more thinking the entire Fediverse is a 500-character microblogging service, and who shit brix in sheer terror and hammer on the block button in sheer panic whenever a "toot" with more than 500 characters shows up in their timeline.

And, of course, those who try hard to force Mastodon's culture and Mastodon's rules, both of which are geared towards Mastodon and Mastodon only, upon users of server applications that are very very much not Mastodon. Because they think that Mastodon culture = Fediverse culture. And who, at the same time, fight everyone who suggests they do something that isn't inline with their perception of Mastodon's culture and rules.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #CharacterLimitMeta #CWCharacterLimitMeta #500Characters #NotOnlyMastodon #FediverseIsNotMastodon #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse

When you see it, you'll shit brix: The Hubzilla timeline.

The "it" that you're supposed to see is:

• The Fediverse did, in fact, not start with Mastodon.
  There was something in the Fediverse before Mastodon: Mistpark was there almost 6 years before Mastodon, Hubzilla was there 10 months before Mastodon.
  Mastodon came into an already existing Fediverse with servers and users and content and a culture.
  The Fediverse has never been only Mastodon. And it will never be.
• The Fediverse had quote-posts almost 6 years before Mastodon.
  (Accurate implication: The non-Mastodon Fediverse can quote-post any public Mastodon toot with no problems, and it has always been able to do so, for as long as Mastodon has been around.)
• The Fediverse had groups almost 6 years before Mastodon which still doesn't even support groups.
• The Fediverse had better lists than Mastodon lists almost 6 years before Mastodon.
• The Fediverse had reply control almost 6 years before Mastodon where people are still waiting for some kind of reply control.
• The Fediverse had permissions almost 6 years before Mastodon where the concept of permissions is completely unknown.

And if you've really paid attention:

• The Fediverse had no character limit to worry about almost 6 years before Mastodon came along with only 500 characters.
  The Fediverse had 16,777,215 characters almost 6 years before Mastodon had 500 characters.
• The Fediverse had full rich-text formatting almost 6 years before Mastodon.
  The Fediverse could generate bold type, italics, underline, code blocks, bullet-point lists etc. without any Unicode trickery. Almost 6 years before Mastodon was there. And more than 12 years before Mastodon could even only display that stuff.

Although it should be blatantly obvious: This here is not a Mastodon toot. This post comes from Hubzilla directly to your Mastodon apps.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Mistpark #Friendica #Hubzilla #FediverseCulture #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #Groups #FediGroups #FediverseGroups #Lists #ReplyControl #Permissions #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #CharacterLimitMeta #CWCharacterLimitMeta #500Characters #TextFormatting #RichText #NotOnlyMastodon #FediverseIsNotMastodon #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse

@Opa Beardfacé

Aber warum dann die Werbung? 🤔

Weil mindestens jeder zweite auf Mastodon immer noch das Fediverse mit Mastodon gleichsetzt. Das Fediverse ist das Netzwerk der Mastodon-Server und besteht nur aus Mastodon.

Das bedeutet auch, daß das Fediverse nur die Features hat, die auch Mastodon hat. Und so tröten sie immer wieder davon, was "das Fediverse" mal an Features einführen sollte, von denen sie "wissen", daß "das Fediverse" sie nicht hat.

Dabei hat das Fediverse diese Features. Mastodon hat sie nicht. Aber andere Serveranwendungen im Fediverse haben sie schon längst. Nur weiß auf Mastodon kaum jemand, daß diese anderen Serveranwendungen existieren, mit Mastodon verbunden sind und diese Features haben.

Volltextsuche (war das ein Drama damals)? Textformatierung? Quote-Posts (war das jüngst ein Drama)? Gruppen? Wirklich private DMs? Mehr als 500 Zeichen? Hat das Fediverse nicht?

Doch, hat es. All das hatte Friendica schon im Mai 2010. Mehr als fünfeinhalb Jahre, bevor es Mastodon gab, als Eugen Rochko noch zur Schule ging. Zumindest das meiste davon hat auch Sharkey.

Nur wissen viele nicht, daß Friendica existiert. Noch mehr wissen nicht, daß Sharkey existiert. Und kaum jemand weiß, was die beiden können. Sonst wäre den Mastodon-Leuten nämlich schon längst bewußt, daß alle Mastodon-Tröts seit 2016 bis heute widerstandslos von außerhalb gequote-postet werden können. Und dann hätte es längst die Forderung gegeben, das gesamte Nicht-Mastodon-Fediverse zum Schutz der Mastodon-Nutzer zu deföderieren.

Und so gibt's immer wieder Forderungen, daß "das Fediverse" Features einführen soll, die es schon seit mehr als 15 Jahren hat, nur eben Mastodon hat sie nicht.

Deshalb schreibt CC: @crossgolf_rebel - kostenlose Kwalitätsposts doch immer wieder über das Fediverse außerhalb von Mastodon. Damit diejenigen, die das lesen, erfahren, daß es auch noch ein Fediverse außerhalb von Mastodon gibt, das sehr viel mehr kann als Mastodon. Das genau das kann, wovon sie selbst sich wünschen, daß "das Fediverse", also Mastodon, es können möge.

Ein wichtiges Detail läßt er leider immer wieder aus, weil es wohl aus unserer Sicht zu selbstverständlich ist. Und das ist, auch zu erwähnen, daß so Sachen wie Friendica, Sharkey usw. mit Mastodon verbunden sind. Das heißt, man kann auf Sharkey sein oder auf Friendica und trotzdem Mastodon-Nutzern folgen, von Mastodon-Nutzern geffolgt werden, mit Threads interagieren, die auf Mastodon angefangen haben, usw.

Beispiel: Ich bin hier auf Hubzilla, und ich antworte gerade dir auf Mastodon, CC: @crossgolf_rebel - kostenlose Kwalitätsposts auf Calckey oder Sharkey (ist der Umzug eigentlich schon durch?) und @Jools auf Friendica. Und das, obwohl die vier sehr verschieden sind (bis darauf, daß Hubzilla erweitert wurde aus etwas, das umgebaut wurde aus einem Fork eines Friendica-Fork, und das alles von einem und demselben Entwickler) und unabhängig voneinander entwickelt werden.

Für uns ist das selbstverständlich. Wir wissen ja auch, daß das eins der Killerfeatures des Fediverse ist. Für viele Mastodon-Nutzer ist das aber alles komplett unvorstellbar. Auch deshalb glauben viele Mastodon-Nutzer, jeder, dem sie folgen, ist auch auf Mastodon, und alles, was in ihrer Timeline passiert, sind Mastodon-Tröts. Mastodon zeigt ihnen ja nicht nur nicht an, woher etwas kommt, sondern Mastodon "kastriert" eigenmächtig Inhalte von außerhalb mit seinem HTML-"Sanitiser".

Mir selbst ist das erst vor einem Jahr klargeworden, als Mastodon- und Facebook-Nutzer ihre Facebook-Blase nach Friendica holten und selbst auch nach Friendica umzogen, um mit ihnen in Verbindung zu bleiben. Daß Friendica mit Mastodon verbunden ist, mußte ihnen da erst gesagt werden. Und die Bestätigung dafür hatten sie erst, als sie ungläubig darauf blickten, wie es ihnen gelang, ihrem Friendica-Konto von ihrem Mastodon-Konto aus zu folgen.

Übrigens: Noch ein Grund, warum CC: @crossgolf_rebel - kostenlose Kwalitätsposts ständig über das Fediverse außerhalb von Mastodon schreibt, ist, um die "Fediverse = Mastodon"-Leute, die nichts anderes als Mastodon wollen, dafür zu sensibilisieren, daß es da draußen auch noch etwas anderes gibt und das völlig normal ist.

Es gibt nämlich sehr viele, die wollen gar nicht, daß das Fediverse irgendwelche oder zumindest bestimmte Features einführt, die Mastodon jetzt nicht hat. Die hat es aber schon, und sie können ihnen jederzeit in die Timeline gespült werden.

Und wenn dann jemand vier Jahre in einer reinen Vanilla-Mastodon-mit-nur-500-Zeichen-Blase gelebt hat und dann auf einmal ein "Tröt" in die Timeline geboostet bekommt mit mehreren tausend Zeichen und formatiertem Text und so (Sachen, die außerhalb von Mastodon völlig normal sind), dann verliert derjenige auch schon mal komplett die Contenance und dreht völlig durch. Die Leidtragenden sind dann wir Nicht-Mastodon-Nutzer, weil wir dann auf den Deckel bekommen für etwas, was für uns und in unserer jeweiligen Kultur ganz normal ist.

Also ist es wichtig, daß Mastodon-Nutzer das früh genug lernen und sich gar nicht erst an ein Fediverse gewöhnen, das nur aus Mastodon besteht.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Zeichenlimit #Zeichenlimits #ZeichenlimitMeta #CWZeichenlimitMeta #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteTröt #QuoteTröts #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebatte #QuoteTrötDebatte #Fediverse #Mastodon #NichtNurMastodon #Sharkey #Friendica #MastodonZentrizität #MastodonNormativität

Wann bekommt diese Instanz eigentlich #QuotePosts? #Mastodon 4.5

cc @martinmuc

@Robert Frank Wenn man selbst nur Mastodon nutzt, fühlt es sich piepschnurzegal an. Dann nimmt man eh das ganze Fediverse als nur Mastodon wahr und die Unterschiede zwischen Mastodon und Nicht-Mastodon fast überhaupt nicht.

Wenn man selbst aber etwas ganz anderes im Fediverse nutzt als Mastodon, dann ist es immens wichtig.

Ich selbst bin nicht auf Mastodon. Ich bin auf Hubzilla (hubzilla.org, de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubzilla, hub.netzgemeinde.eu/item/0a75d…). Das funktioniert völlig anders als Mastodon, das hat ein völlig anderes Konzept als Mastodon, das wird von Mastodon völlig unabhängig entwickelt. Es hat Features, die auf Mastodon unvorstellbar sind. Noch dazu ist es zehn Monate älter als Mastodon. Es geht sogar zurück auf Friendica, das mehr als fünfeinhalb Jahre älter ist als Mastodon.

Aber wie du mit eigenen Augen sehen kannst, kann ich Mastodon-Tröts nicht nur empfangen, sondern auch von Hubzilla aus kommentieren.

Wenn jemand das komplette Fediverse meint, es aber "Mastodon" nennt, dann meint er mich zwar damit, spricht mich aber nicht an. Ich bin ja nicht auf Mastodon.

Wenn jemand einen meiner Posts oder Kommentare als "Tröt" bezeichnet in der Annahme, ich sei auch auf Mastodon, dann ist beides sachlich falsch.

Wenn jemand sich wünscht, "das Fediverse" möge endlich ein bestimmtes Feature einführen, nur weil Mastodon es nicht hat, dann kann ich mir nur vor den Kopf schlagen. In den allermeisten Fällen hat Hubzilla genau dieses Feature schon zehn Monate länger, als es Mastodon überhaupt gibt. Sehr häufig hat Friendica dieses Feature schon etliche Jahre länger, als es Mastodon überhaupt gibt. Das Fediverse hat dieses Feature also. Mastodon hat es nicht, aber das Fediverse hat es.

Wenn jemand dagegen ist, daß "das Fediverse" ein bestimmtes Feature einführt, dem sei gesagt: Höchstwahrscheinlich hat das Fediverse dieses Feature schon. Mastodon nicht, aber das Fediverse. Denn höchstwahrscheinlich hatten Friendica und Hubzilla es schon immer, also auch wieder länger, als es Mastodon überhaupt gibt.

Am besten war noch der Widerstand gegen Quote-Posts. "Das Fediverse" sollte die auf gar keinen Fall einführen, sagten einige. Der Witz: Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, CherryPick, Sharkey, Iceshrimp, Catodon, GoToSocial, Mitra, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams), Forte usw., sie alle haben Quote-Posts. Und zwar schon länger, als es diese Debatte auf Mastodon überhaupt gibt. Und sie alle (außer GoToSocial) können widerstandslos jeden, aber auch wirklich jeden Mastodon-Tröt quote-posten.

Oder damals der Widerstand gegen Volltextsuche. Auf gar keinen Fall sollte "das Fediverse" Volltextsuche haben. Nur hatte das Fediverse schon längst Volltextsuche: Friendica war schon im Mai 2010 mit eingebauter Volltextsuche an den Start gegangen.

Ach ja: Zeichenlimits. Wer "Mastodon" und "Fediverse" gleichsetzt, für den hat auch das Fediverse ein festgelegtes Limit von 500 Zeichen. Friendica und Hubzilla hatten aber nie wirklich Zeichenlimits. In deren Kultur kommen auch keine Zeichenlimits vor. Aktuell haben sie übrigens ein "Limit" von über 16,7 Millionen Zeichen. Bis auf Threads hat alles im Fediverse ein sehr viel höheres Zeichenlimit als Mastodon. Entsprechend kriegen Nicht-Mastodon-Nutzer ständig auf den Deckel, wenn sie das angeblich von Gargron für das ganze Fediverse festgeschriebene Limit von 500 Zeichen überschreiten.

Also: Das Fediverse ist nicht nur Mastodon. Das Fediverse war auch nie nur Mastodon. Das Fediverse ist nicht nur ein Twitter-Klon. Das Fediverse hat sehr viel mehr Features als Mastodon. Und das Fediverse hat auch nicht überall dieselbe Kultur und wird sie auch nie haben.

CC: @Knust @Katharina Nocun

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteTröt #QuoteTröts #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #Zeichenlimit #Zeichenlimits #ZeichenlimitMeta #CWZeichenlimitMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #NichtNurMastodon #Pleroma #Akkoma #Misskey #Calckey #Firefish #CherryPick #Sharkey #Iceshrimp #Catodon #GoToSocial #Mitra #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #MastodonZentrizität #MastodonNormativität

# Pachli 3.2.0 is released

## New features

- Apply filters to search results, bookmarks, and favourites
- Display account pronouns
- #quoteposts

## Fixes

- Make "Load newest notifications" work
- Load images from sites using LetsEncrypt certificates on older devices
- Show emojis in author names in bylines
- Translate boosted posts correctly
- Improve display of error causes
- Show display names with some RTL characters correctly

pachli.app/pachli/2025/11/30/3…

#MastoDev #AndroidDev

A new #Pachli Current is rolling out with a handful of cosmetic changes and bug fixes for #quoteposts.

User visible changes are:

1. If your server allows quoting the "boost" button now also shows a pair of quotes.
2. Following feedback, the background colour for quotes/ preview cards in light mode is slightly darker and in dark mode is slightly lighter.

# Quote posts in Pachli Current

#Pachli Current now supports #quoteposts .

There are a number of design decisions here that are up for discussion and I do expect things will change over the next month or so in response to feedback.

#androiddev #mastodev

#Pachli Current now lets you set your account-level preference for who can quote your posts.

Open Account Preferences, and it's in the "Publishing" section, per the attached screenshot.

#quoteposts #androiddev #mastodev

Now in #Pachli Current: viewing the "detailed" version of a post (the one you see after tapping on it) now shows -- next to the number of boosts and favourites -- the number of times the post has been quoted (if this is your post, Mastodon doesn't let you see this information for posts written by others).

Tapping that number will show you a timeline of those posts so you can see how you're being quoted, and, optionally, remove your quoted post from them.

#androiddev #mastodev #quoteposts

The #quoteposts support in #Pachli Current continues.

If someone has quoted one of your posts you can now remove the quote from their post.

The attached screenshot shows the new "Remove quote" button on a quote of one of the posts from this account.

#mastodev #androiddev

The new #Pachli Current supports #quoteposts notifications. You'll see if someone quoted one of your posts, or if a post you quoted has been edited.

Work in progress:

- Detach #quotes of your posts from other people's posts.
- UI to manage your quote-related preferences.
- Writing posts that quote other posts.

#androiddev #mastodev

#Pachli Current is rolling out with initial support for displaying #QuotePosts.

Details, including screenshots, open questions, and the best way to provide feedback, are all at pachli.app/pachli/2025/11/13/q….

#androiddev #mastodev

@~n Ich dachte, Mastodon führt die für Drukos nötige Technologie erst jetzt gerade ein? Die es übrigens woanders im Fediverse schon bis zu gut 15 Jahren gibt?

(Druko = Quote-Post, wo das Original oben und der Kommentar drunter steht)

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteTröt #QuoteTröts #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebatte #QuoteTrötDebatte

@silverpill @Julian Fietkau In the background, yes.

At first, I expected this implementation to be exactly like Misskey and require this line in plain sight in the content so that the quoted post is rendered dynamically. Which has never been the case in Mike's software family.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #FEP_e232

@Julian Fietkau

I don't know if translating the absence of a FEP-044f quote policy as “not quotable” was the right decision. Maybe it wasn't.

If you use server software that has quote-posts implemented with no quote policy, I think it's rather safe to assume that you're okay with being quote-posted.

I mean, if you're on Misskey, complaining about being quote-posted is like complaining about emoji reactions, MFM shenanigans or the overall genki feeling. Misskey is not Mastodon with 3,000 characters; deal with it. And I haven't even mentioned "Speak as Cat" yet that's popular around the Forkeys.

You might have seen my comment in the forum thread on a way to make it easier for platforms like Friendica to signal a free-for-all quoting permission.

I was just about to say that this goes doubly for those server applications where quote-posts are an integral part of the communication culture.

Seriously, if you're on one of these, but you don't want anyone to quote-post you, and you still insist in always posting in public, you're doing something wrong. And just as seriously, unlike Mastodon, especially the Friendica/Hubzilla/(streams)/Forte family won't mollycoddle you. If you come to stay, we expect you to know what you're doing and why.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #FEP_044f

@Julian Fietkau I'm surprised to read that (streams) allegedly has FEP-e232 implemented. As I happen to have two (streams) channels myself, and as (streams) allows me to have a look at the whole source code of any activity (whereas Hubzilla only shows me that of the content), I've checked a fairly recent post of mine that includes a link. And while it does define the hashtags just like Mastodon and Hubzilla, it does not define links in a way that conforms to FEP-e232. Either that, or (streams)' implementation of FEP-e232 is newer than the software was when I sent that post.

Next, I wanted to see if (streams) had its way of quote-posting changed in the last seven years or so of development and forking. I expected it to quote-post like Hubzilla, namely by turning a BBcode short code into a dumb copy of the original upon sending, but I wanted to see proof. As (streams) is a fork of a fork of three forks of a fork (of a fork) of Hubzilla that's still maintained by Hubzilla's own creator, I would have been surprised if he had changed the way (streams) quote-posts at some point on the way.

So I quote-posted my own post on (streams) just to see what happens. And (streams) acted exactly like Hubzilla and not at all like described in FEP-044f on the surface. It still inserts a dumb copy.

Good thing I have access to the full source code of any message on (streams). So here's what happened, namely what I expected to happen: (streams) quote-posts like Hubzilla.

First of all, when I clicked the "Share" button, this short code was inserted into the post editor:

The number, by the way, is the running number of the message to quote-post on the server.

Upon sending the post, (streams) automatically "expanded" the short code into the dumb copy I had expected.

[⁠share author='Jupiter+Rowland' profile='https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/channel/jupiter_rowland' portable_id='_moYLN61-o3FbP3jyThygMDf-bjF2cApXgkrwlAE77iKy19xM1_6F06V4b71eTkqqNaTUjGiN0lfw2dyn5nXRw' avatar='https://streams.elsmussols.net/xp/6b50efa4bb804860f6128bba791b74fab4a0a5e09dbcbee8d8ca77cee00f0330-6' link='https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/item/0a1cdda5-eb1c-4a33-9574-ddd896977b4f' auth='true' posted='2025-09-21 19:42:56' message_id='https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/item/0a1cdda5-eb1c-4a33-9574-ddd896977b4f'] ...(the source code of the original message goes here)... [/share]

Both Hubzilla and (streams) render this the same way, namely with a header line above the copy that includes the profile picture of the original author, the name of the original author with a Zot/Nomad-type link to their channel/account and a Zot/Nomad-type link to the original of the post ("Zot/Nomad-type" means that [zrl][/zrl] is used rather than [url][/url] which means that the ID of an observer on Hubzilla/(streams)/Forte is attached to the link for OpenWebAuth identity recognition purposes.)

At the same time, curiously, (streams) includes the line "rel": "https://misskey-hub.net/ns#_misskey_quote" and a line that starts with "name": "RE: and continues with the URL of the original message into the code for the link to the original message. The latter is identical to what Misskey and all Forkeys have in quote-posting notes in plain sight, only that (streams) only reveals it in the source code rather than in the content as well.

So this part of FEP-044f is implemented, albeit concealed from most people and only happening in the code.

Now, looking at the quote policy part, that looks like it could be possible to add to the Fediverse's permission champions Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte. After all, they already have comment controls with no FEP backing it (and if GoToSocial's quote policy can be made into an FEP, maybe so can (streams)' and Forte's comment controls so that they actually do blank out reply buttons on the farther ends of the Fediverse if the software on the farther ends implement support for that FEP).

This could be done at three levels again. I'll illustrate this with (streams) and Forte because they're quite a bit less complex than older Hubzilla.

At channel level, quote-posting (and maybe quoting as well) could be set as usually, namely to semi-public (= everyone in the Fediverse = no quote policy), restricted (= only your contacts) and only yourself. (Seriously, you don't want random passersby with no accounts to quote-post you. Even though you can allow them to comment on your posts if you dare.)

"Only yourself" could be overridden at contact level by permitting certain contacts to quote-post (and maybe quote) your messages. This is actually standard behaviour on (streams) and Forte.

And then there is the per-post level which would be similar to (streams)' and Forte's comment controls. These allow you to limit who may comment on a post to only your contacts and those who have already participated in the same conversation, and they allow you to turn off comments altogether.

Quote authorisation would not be much different in handling from manually moderating comments from those who technically aren't permitted to comment (only that spammers don't quote-post, at least not yet, and they probably never will because that simply makes no sense). So that'd be nothing really new.

Of course, this would have some limitations which come from how Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte work and from their conversation architecture.

The first limitation is that you could only give certain contacts permission to quote-post your posts if you didn't give it to the whole Fediverse. Channel-wide permissions are always inherited by contact-specific permissions, and this cannot be overridden. So you couldn't generally allow everyone to quote-post your posts except for one certain contact of yours.

The second limitation is that you can only control the permissions of contacts, but not of non-contacts. So you can't disallow some stranger whom you aren't connected to to quote-post your posts while everyone else is allowed.

Then again, FEP-044f doesn't make either of these two possible either. It can only define who is permitted to quote-post a post, not who isn't.

The third limitation is that, on Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte, comments always have the same permissions as the post that they belong to because comments always have the same owner as the post that they belong to. Basically, if FEP-044f was to be defined for each comment individually, it would have a chance of clashing with conversation containers as per FEP-171b.

Here on Hubzilla, as well as from (streams)' point of view, everyone's comments in this thread are owned by me because I've started the thread. And the permissions on all these comments are defined by my post. I've seen my share of permission clashes whenever someone on Mastodon replied to a public post or a public comment with a DM, and Hubzilla overrode this by forcing the permissions of the post on that reply.

In practice, this means that the quote policies of all comments would be the same as that of the post. At least that's how Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte would understand them because the concept of comments having different permissions than the post is alien to them. So if you say that I'm not permitted to quote-post your comment, but I say that anyone can quote-post my post, Hubzilla and (streams) override the quote policy that you've given your comment on Mastodon with the quote policy that I've given my post on Hubzilla, and I can quote-post you.

So the actually difficult part would be to implement an exception in how Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte handle comment permissions for quote policies and make them individual for each comment rather than making comments inherit them from the post.

Well, and lastly, if you permitted all your contacts to quote-post a post of yours, and you had a few more contacts, the "canQuote" section would end up monstrous. (A bit less so if you could cherry-pick those who are allowed to quote-post you on a per-post base, just like you can cherry-pick those who are allowed to see the post in the first place.) Also, I'm wondering just how well policies as per FEP-044f (and their implementations in various server applications) will work with DIDs as per FEP-ef61 which (streams) and Forte use, and I guess, so does Mitra now.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #GoToSocial #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #Mitra #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #Permission #Permissions #FEP_044f #FEP_171b #FEP_e232 #FEP_ef61

@Matthias @C.Suthorn :prn: Ich habe es oben geschrieben: So ein System ist fediverseweit gar nicht möglich. Es ist technisch nicht realisierbar.

Was Mastodon da gebaut hat, funktioniert nur innerhalb von Mastodon. Ich habe es ja oben erklärt:

• Auch wenn du einen Post als nicht quote-post-bar einstellst, können Pleroma, Misskey, Friendica & Co. den trotzdem ungehindert quote-posten.
• Gleichzeitig kann niemand auf Mastodon irgendwas auf Pleroma, Misskey, Friendica & Co. quote-posten, obwohl es jeder darf.

Das liegt daran, daß Mastodon mal wieder mit voller Absicht das Rad neu erfunden hat.

Sie hätten die Art des Quote-Postens übernehmen können, die Misskey schon lange hat und die auch Threads verwendet. Sie hätten die Art des Quote-Postens übernehmen können, die Friendica seit über 15 Jahren erfolgreich einsetzt. Nein, statt dessen hat Mastodon eine eigene, proprietäre Technik entwickelt und sich mit vollem Vorsatz zum Rest des Fediverse noch inkompatibler gemacht.

Aber noch einmal: Mike Macgirvin sagt, es ist technisch nicht möglich, Quote-Posts von öffentlichen Posts zu verhindern. Und noch einmal: Der Mann muß es wissen.

Mike entwickelt schon seit fast einem halben Jahrhundert Software. Er ist Profi. Er war mal bezahlter Profi. Mike hat Friendica rausgehauen, da ging Eugen Rochko noch zur Schule.

Mike hat mehr Fediverse-Serveranwendungen entwickelt als jeder andere da draußen. Jede einzelne davon ist von den Features her leistungsfähiger als alles andere, was es im Fediverse gibt. Mike hat im Alleingang sogar mehr Fediverse-Protokolle entwickelt als jeder andere da draußen. Mike hat nomadische Identität im Alleingang erfunden, und sie funktioniert seit 2012.

Und Mike hat in puncto Sicherheit und Berechtigungssteuerung weit mehr gemacht als jeder andere Fediverse-Entwickler. Das, was er entwickelt hat, ist in seiner Funktionalität auch nicht eingeschränkt auf die eigene Software, sondern er hat sich immer auch Gedanken darüber gemacht, wie es außerhalb funktioniert, während für Eugen Rochko alles außerhalb von Mastodon Feindesland ist, das ignoriert wird und totgeschwiegen gehört.

Ganz ehrlich: Was vor allem Hubzilla und (streams) und Forte können in puncto Berechtigungssteuerung, das ist für die meisten Mastodon-Nutzer vollkommen unvorstellbar. Es gibt Berechtigungseinstellungen auf bis zu drei Ebenen (ganzer Kanal, einzelne Kontakte, pro Post/Thread) für fast alles bis hin zu Features, die Mastodon gar nicht hat.

Nur für Quote-Posts gibt's keine. Weil das fediverseweit nicht möglich ist.

Wenn es öffentlich ist und jeder es sehen kann, dann kann es auch jeder quote-posten. Das geht schlicht und ergreifend nicht zu verhindern. Nicht mal innerhalb von Hubzilla und (streams) und Forte. Außerhalb schon mal erst recht nicht.

Innerhalb von Mastodon geht's nur aus zwei Gründen. Zum einen, weil Mastodon den ganzen Rest des Fediverse bestenfalls komplett ignoriert. Zum anderen, weil Mastodon-Nutzer zwingend für jeden Pups auf GUI-Knöpfchen angewiesen sind. Sie sind es nicht gewohnt, irgendwas in ihren Tröts per Hand zu formatieren, weil sie noch nie irgendwas haben formatieren können. Und weil gefühlt beinahe jeder nur ein Smartphone und eine dedizierte Mastodon-App verwendet und kein Copy-Paste kennt, ist das Quote-Post-GUI-Knöpfchen das einzige, was sie haben, abgesehen von Screenshots.

Aber schon Mastodons Methode funktioniert, wie ich oben schon schrieb, nicht über Mastodon hinaus. Und da kann Mastodon lange drauf warten, daß der Rest des Fediverse seine eigene jahrelang etablierte Technologie wegschmeißt und auf Mastodons proprietäre Technologie umschwenkt.

Auf Misskey, den Forkeys und allen anderen, die auf dieselbe Art quote-posten, ist Quote-Posten überhaupt nicht verhinderbar. Das liegt daran, daß Quote-Posts pupeinfach als Link auf den Originalbeitrag ausgeführt sind mit "RE:" davor. RE: https://domain.tld/Adresse_des_Originalbeitrags Zack, hast du einen Quote-Post. Und mal ehrlich, für sowas braucht man kein GUI-Knöpfchen, wenn man tippen und URLs copy-pasten kann.

Auch auf Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) und Forte, die ganz anders quote-posten, ist Quote-Posten öffentlicher Beiträge nicht verhinderbar. Da nutzen die Leute keine Apps auf Smartphones. Nein, die meisten sitzen am Desktop-PC oder Laptop mit Hardwaretastatur und nutzen einen Standardbrowser statt einer dedizierten App. Copy-Paste ist für sie kein Problem und schon gar kein Fremdwort. Außerdem sind vor allem die alten Hasen es höchstwahrscheinlich meistens gewohnt, Markup-Code für Formatierungen per Hand einzutippen, statt sich auf die GUI-Knöpfchen zu verlassen, die auch nur BBcode-Stückchen in den Editor reinpflanzen.

Mike Macgirvin sagt: Es gibt genau eine Art und Weise, wirksam fediverseweit zu verhindern, daß du gequote-postet wirst. Und das ist, nicht öffentlich zu posten.

Für jemanden für ihn ist es aber auch einfach, das zu sagen. Gerade auf Hubzilla, (streams) und Forte gibt es etliche Abstufungen zwischen öffentlich und DM. Auf Hubzilla kann ich einen Post

• in alle Öffentlichkeit
• nur an mich selbst
• an eine bestimmte Privacy Group (quasi wie eine Liste auf Mastodon, aber sehr viel mächtiger)
• an diejenigen, denen ich ein Profil zugewiesen habe, das nicht das Standardprofil meines Kanals ist (Mastodon hat dagegen nur ein Profil pro Konto)
• an ein bestimmtes Forum/eine bestimmte Gruppe
• eine beliebige individuelle Auswahl aus einzelnen Kontakten, Foren/Gruppen, Privacy Groups und Profilzugewiesenen

versenden.

Und der Witz ist: Das steuert nicht nur, an wen der Post geht. Das steuert auch, wer den Post (und sämtliche Kommentare zum Post) sehen darf. Wenn der Post nicht an dich geht, wirst du ihn nie zu Gesicht bekommen. Nein, auch nicht per Boost. Das ist nämlich bei nichtöffentlichen Posts explizit verboten, und das dafür nötige Bedienelement ist schlicht und ergreifend nicht da.

Es wird noch besser: Das funktioniert sogar bis nach Mastodon. Denn wenn es nicht öffentlich ist, dann stellt es sich Mastodon gegenüber als DM dar.

Ich setze noch einen drauf: Im krassen Gegensatz zum restlichen Fediverse posten Hubzilla, (streams) und Forte mit Standardeinstellungen nicht öffentlich. Alle drei haben standardmäßig schon eine Privacy Group/Zugriffsliste namens "Freunde", in der alle neuen Kontakte landen. Und alle drei posten standardmäßig nur zu dieser Privacy Group/Zugriffsliste namens "Freunde". Aus Mastodon-Sicht verschicken alle drei standardmäßig immer nur DMs. Wenn du öffentlich posten willst, ist das Extraaufwand.

So gehen Sicherheit und Privatsphäre. Und nicht mit proprietärem, zu nichts anderem kompatiblem Hokuspokus für Doofe wie auf Mastodon.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Pleroma #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteTröt #QuoteTröts #Drüko #Drükos #Druko #Drukos #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotePostDebatte #QuoteTrötDebatte #Sicherheit #Berechtigung #Berechtigungen

Okay, everyone, sit down. I'll tell you a few things about Mastodon's quote-post feature that you know nothing about. Definitely not if all you know is Mastodon. Oh, and by the way, in case you don't know yet in spite of following me: The Fediverse is not only Mastodon.

Mastodon has been quote-post-able for as long as it has been around

Eugen Rochko is bringing quote-posts to Mastodon. But he is not bringing quote-posts to the Fediverse. The Fediverse has had quote-posts for 15 years.

It was Mike Macgirvin who introduced quote-posts to the Fediverse in July, 2010, when he launched something called Mistpark back then and Friendica today (friendi.ca, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendic…). That was five and a half years before Mastodon was launched.

In fact, when Mastodon was launched, it immediately federated itself with Friendica and with Hubzilla, a fork of a fork of Friendica by Friendica's own creator which has quote-posts, too. So when Mastodon was launched, it immediately became possible to quote-post Mastodon toots. Not on Mastodon itself, but on Friendica and Hubzilla.

Just about everything that isn't Mastodon has already got quote-posts right now

Here are a few (but not even all) Fediverse server applications that already have quote-posts:

• Pleroma
• Akkoma
• Misskey
• Firefish
• Iceshrimp
• Sharkey
• CherryPick
• Catodon
• Mitra
• Friendica
• Hubzilla
• (streams)
• Forte

And they're all part of the Fediverse which means that they're all connected to Mastodon. People on all of these can theoretically read your Mastodon toots. And people on all of these can theoretically quote-post your Mastodon toots.

Mastodon's quote-post opt-in is not a water-tight defence against being quote-posted

So you can choose not to be quote-posted. But you can only choose not to be quote-posted by Mastodon users. This opt-in does not work with the rest of the Fediverse.

First of all, that's because Mastodon's quote-post feature is not compatible with anything else out there. Mastodon's developers have chosen to re-invent the quote-posting wheel from scratch. They've intentionally chosen to do so in a way that's completely incompatible with everything else out there.

Their intention was to reinforce Mastodon's appearance to its own users as the one and only Fediverse and ActivityPub gold standard and to make Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Firefish, Iceshrimp, Sharkey, CherryPick, Catodon, Mitra, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams), Forte etc. look broken. It's part of their plan to keep Mastodon users on Mastodon in the wake of Mastodon's market share in the Fediverse shrinking.

Also, they did not publish any specifications on their quote-post implementation, so even those non-Mastodon developers who are fast enough didn't have a chance to implement support for Mastodon's opt-in.

This means that even if you've set your posts to un-quote-post-able on Mastodon, everything I've listed above can still quote-post you with no resistance.

Absolute Fediverse-wide protection against being quote-posted is impossible

And don't get your hopes high that the day will come when nobody on the Fediverse will be able to quote-post you, whether they're on Mastodon or not. Such a setting is technologically impossible.

Who says that? Mike Macgirvin says that. The guy who launched Friendica and brought quote-posts to the Fediverse 15 years ago, remember? This guy has built the Fediverse's most elaborate, most complex, most fine-grained, most advanced permissions system into (streams) and Forte.

These two have reply control, the kind of which you couldn't image in your wildest dreams. I'm serious. They have permissions settings for almost everything on two or three levels, for your whole channel, individually per contact and sometimes even per post or per file or folder in the file storage.

But they don't have quote-post permission settings. Because that's impossible to enforce Fediverse-wide. And even if it was possible, it'd be pointless. If they can't quote-post you, they'll copy-paste you. If they can't copy-paste you either because they're on a phone, they'll post screenshots of your toots.

Mike also says, there is exactly one way to keep people from quote-posting you, and that's by not posting in public. Unfortunately, unlike what he has created, Mastodon has little between "public" and "DM", if anything.

Mastodon cannot quote-post the non-Mastodon Fediverse

This may be the big surprise: It has recently been discovered by chance that Mastodon's quote-post feature only works with Mastodon toots.

On the one hand, Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Sharkey, Friendica, Hubzilla etc. can quote-post just about everything that comes in from Mastodon. But on the other hand, no Mastodon 4.5 user will be able to quote-post anything from either of these. Or from Pixelfed or PeerTube or Loops or Castopod or WriteFreely or whatever.

That's because Mastodon is looking for a quote-post opt-in. But nothing else in the Fediverse supports Mastodon's quote-post opt-in, also seeing as it's still officially in development. And it's highly unlikely that everything in the Fediverse will adopt another piece of non-standard, proprietary Mastodon tech.

"Quote" actually means something else

Lastly, Mastodon has the audacity to call this feature "quote".

A "quote" is something else. Remember forums? Like, bulletin-board forums with subforums and all? Where posts are quoted in follow-ups, entirely or only partially? That's what a quote is. That has got nothing to do with quote-posts.

Why I say that there's a difference? Because I also say that Friendica has had both quotes and quote-posts.

It has had them for 15 years, both quotes (which it calls "quotes", go figure) and quote-posts (which it calls "quoted shares", and which include the original author of the quoted post, complete with their profile picture and a clickable link to them, as well as a clickable link to the original post).

Hubzilla has both. (streams) has both. Forte has both. And I wouldn't be surprised if other Fediverse server software had both, too.

The irony is that Mastodon itself has been able to render actual quotes since version 4.0 from October, 2022. At the same time, it will continue to be unable to render any quote-posts done outside of Mastodon for the foreseeable future.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #NotOnlyMastodon #FediverseIsNotMastodon #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse #Pleroma #Akkoma #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Firefish #Iceshrimp #Sharkey #CherryPick #Catodon #Mitra #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares

Immer wieder verpassen User*innen hier, dass neue Features in Mastodon eingebaut wurden und sie ihre Einstellungen anpassen sollten, um davon zu profitieren.

Ich habe ein Issue geöffnet, um anzuregen, dass Mastodon für Updates mit neuen Features den Instanz-Admins einen Entwurf für eine Server-Ankündigung mit den wichtigsten Inhalten zur Verfügung stellt:

github.com/mastodon/mastodon/i…

#MastoAdmin #Mastodon #MastoDev #MastodonDev #MastodonFeatures #QuotePosts

One of the worst aspects of Mastodon's plans to introduce quote-posts with a switch:

You keep having to tell Mastodon users that the Fediverse is not only Mastodon. That (insert a long list of Fediverse server applications here¹) have had quote-posts from the beginning. That they're all in the Fediverse. That they're all fully federated with Mastodon. That they can all quote-post any Mastodon toot they can possibly receive or import. And that they will be able to quote-post any Mastodon toot they can in the future, regardless of Mastodon account settings.

Up until this point, they were fully, firmly convinced that they're 100% safe from quote-posts on Mastodon. Either because they could not for the lives of them imagine that anything in the Fediverse has them. Or simply because they "knew" up until this point that the Fediverse is Mastodon. And if Mastodon introduces an opt-out or opt-in switch, this switch will mean absolute, 100% water-tight safety from quote-posts.

But for the Fediverse outside of Mastodon, the quote-post switch will be completely useless. Again: These lots of Fediverse server apps have had quote-posts before Mastodon introduced them. They had quote-posts before Mastodon invented the opt-in or opt-out switch. I mean, at least two of them have had quote-posts since before Mastodon even existed! So how are they supposed to support a proprietary, non-standard, Mastodon-specific switch which probably won't be documented anywhere before Mastodon rolls out quote-posts?

I'll tell you what'll happen.

Mastodon users will deactivate quote-posts for their accounts or not activate them in the first place. Non-Mastodon users, not knowing about the status of that switch, will quote-post them regardless with zero resistance. Upon which these Mastodon users will shit brix. And they'll call for either blocking that obviously rogue Mastodon user instance-wide, or blocking that user's instance, or Fediblocking that user's instance.

At this point, someone else who is not on Mastodon either will chime in and tell them: That particular user is, in fact, not on Mastodon. The Fediverse is not only Mastodon. That user is on Friendica. No, Friendica is not a rogue Mastodon instance. Friendica is not Mastodon at all. No, Friendica isn't a Mastodon fork either. Friendica has nothing to do with Mastodon. In fact, Friendica is older than Mastodon. On Friendica, quote-posts are perfectly normal. Friendica has had quote-posts for longer than Mastodon has even existed. And so forth.

Cue the Mastodon user shitting brix again, foaming with anger and calling for a Fediblock of all of Friendica.

In fact, I'm pretty sure that if Mastodon's quote-post feature and the rest of the Fediverse disregarding it leads to more awareness of the non-Mastodon Fediverse and its non-Mastodon features on Mastodon, it will also lead to demands for being able to completely block everything that isn't Mastodon, either on an account level (and then on by default, of course) or on an instance level or both.

Oh, by the way: The ability to completely lock out entire Fediverse projects already exists in the Fediverse right now, too. It's exclusive to two other Fediverse server apps that aren't Mastodon, both of which introduced this feature in September.

¹Here's a probably incomplete list of still-active Fediverse server apps with quote-posts which, yes, can quote-post Mastodon toots right now and will be able to quote-post Mastodon toots regardless of opt-in or opt-out:

• Pleroma
• Akkoma
• Misskey
• Firefish
• Sharkey
• Iceshrimp
• Iceshrimp.NET
• CherryPick
• Neko
• Catodon
• Meisskey
• Tanukey
• Metaskey
• Mitra
• Friendica
• Hubzilla
• (streams)
• Forte

And both Threads and the Bridgy Fed Bluesky bridge support quote-posts, too.

(Inb4 both Oliphant and The Bad Space trying hard to catch all instances of the server apps mentioned above to blocklist them all.)

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #NotOnlyMastodon #FediverseIsNotMastodon #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse #Mastodon #Pleroma #Akkoma #Misskey #Calckey #Firefish #Sharkey #Iceshrimp #Iceshrimp.NET #CherryPick #Neko #Catodon #Meisskey #Tanukey #Metaskey #Mitra #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #Threads #BridgyFed #Bluesky #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate #FediblockMeta #Oliphant #TheBadSpace